Community through the Cancer Journey with Margie Zohn

Transcript (lightly edited for clarity)

Speakers
Beth Tener
Margie Zohn

Beth Tener: Today’s episode is about what happens when we have to navigate transitions we would never choose; when life throws events at us that come out of nowhere, whether it’s illness or natural disaster, or other things that we don’t have a lot of choice in.

What we’ll be exploring: how does kinship and community support us in those times? With me today, is Margie Zohn, who was one of Rick’s closest friends. She was there with him and me through the whole journey you’re going to hear about today and in future episodes.

Margie is a coach who coaches executives in leadership and communications with Zohn Coaching. She also does amazing work training people in public speaking. She taught a popular course at Harvard for about 10 years and she has a background in theater. She also coaches artists of all kinds to develop new performances.She is someone who knows a lot about kinship and peer support.

Now, one thing I want to clarify is that as you listen to these stories, the events here happened over 10 years ago. I’ve now written a memoir about it, which Margie has read. So we’ve been talking about the stories lately, but we’re talking about some pretty intense times and experiences. You’re going to hear some levity and humor, which was partly what Rick brought to it, but also understand that we’ve had quite a few years to integrate the experience, which you’ll be hearing as a listener for the first time. So if you hear a lightness as we talk about some pretty hard things, that somewhat explains why.

I’m really grateful to have you here today, Margie, and invite you to say hello, maybe share how you met Rick to weave us into the story.

Margie Zohn: Thank you Beth. I’m really happy to be here. Rick was doing some nutritional counseling that was one of his interests in Jamaica Plain, Massachusetts and part of Boston. A friend of mine was like, “Oh, I just saw this guy and he recommended all these things I should change in my diet and vitamins, and I hI lost weight, and I feel fantastic, and wow, he lives like two streets from you.” I thought – what a coincidence.

I found that I had a lot of headaches and I just thought, I’m in my late 20s. I don’t feel great. I think I should feel better than this. I said what the heck and I scheduled an appointment with him. So that’s how we met. There was a little bit of looking at diet and vitamins and minerals to support health well being and from there we developed a friendship.

From there, we developed a romantic relationship that lasted on and off a couple of years. But ultimately, we decided really that the friendship was the thing, that we were life-long, fast friends, and that was just how it was going to be.

Beth Tener: I don’t know if I mentioned before that Rick also had this whole nutrition part of what he did. When I started dating Rick, you were definitely a part of his life, and it was really fun to get to all be friends in that time.

I’ll pick back up the story, and again, thank you for being here for this part of the story. It’s not the easiest part. Two weeks after we got engaged, I was sleeping over at Rick’s house one night. In the morning I was sound asleep and he woke me up. I could feel he was nervous and he said, “you’ve got to get up. I just had a lot of blood in my urine and I don’t think it’s right. Something’s really off.” As soon as he could, he was going to go call the doctor. I was feeling such fear and shock, I don’t know what this is. It didn’t sound good. I was able to reshuffle my workday and go with him to this doctor’s appointment.

Luckily, they could see us pretty quickly. The next day or so, we were getting all these different tests. So eventually we were able to sit down with the chief of urology at this hospital near Boston. I’ll never forget it. He just pulled up the pictures of Rick’s insides and showed us what was going on.

He pointed to his kidney and he said, that right there is most likely a tumor. It’s the size of a golf ball. It was just such a shock, like you’re fine one day and then, all of a sudden we’re in this whole other world. He explained most likely if we do surgery on that kidney, if the cancer’s within the kidney, you can get that kidney taken out. You have the other kidney and you can go on to live a good life.

A few days later worked on getting a second opinion and that surgeon pretty much said the same thing. You should get surgery as soon as you can. So we decided to pursue that a few weeks later. Luckily, Rick had insurance.

I know for a lot of people, that part is its own whole stress, but we were lucky to have insurance in this year of decisions after decisions. Like here was a big, another one. We went ahead and did the surgery and it was this shock. I’m sure many have experienced this in different ways in life, but like your life is going one way, normal one day.

Then the next day, all of a sudden it’s so different. I remember feeling how everything else fades into the background, like my work and the house projects and all these other things. Suddenly, all you can focus on is your partner and the cancer.

I was thinking, “how do we do this?” We just got engaged. We’re in the middle of building a house. Now cancer shows up. We already had enough stress what the hell?!” So I’ll pause there, Margie, if you remember that time, what was your experience of it?

Margie Zohn: It’s so true what you said about feeling like everything’s humming along, we’re making choices and suddenly you’re sucked through the wormhole into this whole other existence where there’s no certainty about anything.

When Rick told me it was cancer I immediately had that physical terror reaction that has always, for me, accompanied that word. There’s a history of cancer in my family. I remember him saying, “listen, if you’re gonna get cancer, kidney is the best place to get it. Because you take out that kidney and you can live with the other kidney.”

I thought “okay, that’s a pretty good frame on that one. I’m going with that.” Then I said to him “please don’t mess up the other kidney because I don’t want to have to give you a kidney. But I would, but I don’t want to have to.” We laughed about that, but, it was a very unexpected thing.

Beth Tener: The surgery got put together pretty quickly. It was booked in the Boston area. You and another friend of mine were there that day. Suddenly, you’re shifting into these new roles. So he and I are partners, and then you get to the hospital and he’s the patient and I’m the caregiver, he’s taking off his clothes and putting on the hospital gowns.

I remember that morning, we’re in the room with the nurse who is interviewing us, and Rick was just cracking one joke a minute. You’re going to probably remember some of this too. 

Margie Zohn: It’s seven in the morning in this drab room, and, this nurse is just going through the protocol of checking him in and asking questions. His answers were so funny.

I just remember my stomach hurt from laughing so much. Seriously, and I thought, I’m in the hospital watching someone check in for a cancer surgery and I’m doubled over laughing. The nurse, at first, was a little taken aback and then she started laughing. I’m sure she had never experienced anyone come in like that before.

Beth Tener: I know.

Margie Zohn: This was the start of me going, God, there’s a little Buddha, a little laughing Buddha in here. Cause who else does that?

Beth Tener: I wrote down some of the jokes. The anesthesiologist had put the potion into his bloodstream and then he looks at the heart rate monitor and then asks the nurse if the monitor will tell him how the Dow is doing.

She starts to seriously answer and then just burst out laughing. She gave him some kind of antacid and told him it wouldn’t taste good. She said, “it’s like a shot of whiskey.” And then Rick said, “it’s more like a shot of moose pee.” I’m thinking, where does he even get this at that hour of the day?

It’s certainly made it more bearable for us. That lightness that he had, even though it was, of course, really heavy and scary. He went in for the surgery and you and I were waiting for hours. You just have to wait around and try to hold your fears and worry and stay in the present moment.

I think for me, all the meditation that I had been practicing was really coming back. I remember you were doing yoga in the waiting room, right?

Margie Zohn: I used to do it in the airports too. I was like, I don’t care. I’m just doing it. I got to do what’s going to work here.

Beth Tener: It was hours. Towards the end of the day, when most of the people had left the waiting room, finally the doctor came down and found me. He said “we found just what we thought we would find. It is what they call renal cell carcinoma contained within the kidney. I think we removed the full tumor.”

I was there trying to take it all in. “Okay, so it was cancer. But he thinks he got it.” Sometimes you can’t even fully listen while it’s happening because it’s so shocking. I was thinking, “can I really trust that they got it?” But I was so ready to get onto the hope bandwagon, as you might say. Probably you and I were hugging and really relieved. Then eventually they said we could go down and see him in the recovery room. Do you want to tell that story?

Margie Zohn: We were excited to share the good news that they got it. When you wake up from surgery, I’ve only done it once. Thank goodness. But it’s an incredibly groggy experience, right?

Beth Tener: What just happened to my body?

Margie Zohn: Anesthesia is a wacky thing. We got it to his bedside. He was just waking up. The nurse said “we haven’t told him anything yet.” So I think you gave him the good news. And then he goes, “good.” And then he goes, “man, my mouth is so dry. I think they filmed Ishtar in it.”

Ishtar is a terrible movie that takes place in a desert. That was the first thing he said. Okay, get this man some water because that’s a dry mouth. That was a sort of a happy moment there, just everyone’s intact, right? The sense of humor is intact, hopefully everything is intact.

Beth Tener: After the surgery, Rick blessedly recovered pretty well. Everything was pretty well on track. The second kidney started taking over and doing what you want it to do. All the numbers were good. So we’re able to get him out of the hospital pretty quick and home. This was in November. We had to miss Thanksgiving with family because I was taking care of him at his house. His recovery went pretty smoothly.

In the end, it was almost like this blip of four to eight weeks where he had cancer, we got the tumor out and the doctors were like, “you should be good.” So we picked back up our lives and continued building the house, making all these decisions. Both of us were working full time and spending a lot of time up and back to the house site. Life got back to normal in a way.

That was November and then at his six-month checkup as you do with cancer, they checked and they said, “everything looks great. Go live a happy life” So on we went with house loans and all kinds of things.

That summer, when our house was two thirds of the way complete, he started having a lot of pain again in his midsection. We couldn’t work out why. We had lots of doctor’s appointments and eventually a biopsy and they realized it had recurred. This meant in the middle of us going through moving our two apartments into this new house Rick was having a lot of discomfort and pain. We were in the thick of it.

After we got moved in November, the doctors recommended he get a second surgery. Margie, you and I,  were back again at a different hospital. We go through it a second time. In that surgery, we had to spend a much longer time in the hospital. Back to the theme today about community and cancer, I wanted to talk about how Rick was in the hospital with the people who work there.

Margie Zohn: This time around, there was a lot of pain leading up to it. It was a rough period. Through the second surgery and the recovery, it was hard, right? But the thing that continuously amazed me was the way Rick would embrace the people that were around him.

One very particular moment I remember watching him when the phlebotomist was coming in. Rick was getting poked, sometimes a million times a day it felt like. This phlebotomist comes in and he’s not making eye contact. His head is down. No one’s happy to see him. That’s what he does all day. And he says, “oh, hi, I’m the phlebotomist. I’m here to take your blood.” And Rick goes, “and what are you going to give me in return?” The guy now looks up.

Now Rick’s going, “so where are you from? How long have you been to the hospital?” They’re chatting away and it’s a couple minutes past. It’s watching two old friends, catching up with each other. Then he finishes up and he says, “okay, I’m done. I’ll see you later on.”

And Rick goes, “what about my present?” He’s like “I’ll think about it.” Now he’s at the door and Rick says, “I accept presents in the mail.” Then he goes out and I literally hear him say to a nurse right outside the door “who is this guy? Who is that guy?” He was pleased.

Rick was chuckling. I said, :how do you do that?” He said, “do what?” I said, “even when you feeling so crappy and you have every right to be crabby, how do you just connect like that? On so many levels with people?” He said, “whenever I’m in a situation like this, I think to myself, these people are my family for the next few days.”

These people are my family. I just thought, wow. I left the hospital that day thinking. What if I walked around in my life thinking that, wherever I am and whether or not it’s going my way, that I’m approach it that these people are my family right now.

Now, we all have things about our families, right? Maybe we’re not ideal. They’re challenging, but what if you treated the people the way you would have wanted your family to be, right? The true family. What would that look like? And I felt like that’s what I was watching.

Beth Tener: The same with the nurses on each shift. He would see them as human beings. Yes, they’re doing a job and they’re in a role and he’s in a role, but I remember at one point coming into his hospital room and there was a younger nurse sitting on the edge of the bed and he’s giving her career advice. (He had done a degree in public health and taught in grad school.)

It was the day we had to check out of the hospital. He’s asking her “okay, do you care about helping people?” And she’s yes. He’s says “do you care about making money?” She’s said, not so much. He said “So public health might be a good career for you.”

The other part was the community experience. It was so special for me. Being in the role of the prime caregiver, I was thinking of how I could keep our whole community connected into Rick. Both times he went in the hospital, I’ve created these collage boards of photos glued onto stiff poster board.

I took all these smiling faces of all our friends and family and we had those right next to his bed. Also we made signs around the hospital room so that when anyone came in, they were like, “Oh, this is a person. This is a full human being.”

Margie Zohn: It’s goes both ways, right? Yeah. Here’s his family and that maybe they see him a little bit differently. Imagine working in a hospital. It can get like incredibly grueling or task oriented. Interrupting that a little bit is a great thing and thinking about all the web of people and communities.

Beth Tener: Yeah, because I thought about it, as a nurse or a doctor or whatever role, every day there’s someone different in this bed. How do you bring that human connection into the experience?

Margie Zohn: How were you doing at that time? In terms of your own care, did you have a separate support network?

Beth Tener: I had layers of friends and family that were showing up in different ways. The metaphor I used often in those weeks and months was that I’d built up friendships over many years. Same with Rick. If you’re a loving person in the world, you flowed love out and you think of being a giving person. Then I was in a time I needed to receive. I was so completely overwhelmed and stressed out with the house and moving. It was not physically possible for me to do everything.

I had to get over this self-sufficiency thing and actually be willing to receive help. Both of us did. I think what was remarkable was how much all that love flowed back towards us in very specific and meaningful ways. And that was just really pretty incredible to be on the receiving end of.

I had different friends to support me in different aspects of it. I had joined a yoga teacher training program, which I’ll probably talk about in a future episode. That community was really helpful. Once a month I was able to go to these spiritual trainings with this group of people all going through a cohort program. It was pretty incredible to have that new set of practices.

It was really amazing how our community rallied. We were doing a pretty good job sending emails and keeping people updated. When people heard what he was going through, this generosity flowed towards us.  I mean everything from friends coming up to help with painting with the house, his work friends showed up and helped chop wood for the new wood stove. They donated sick time because he was needing to take a lot of days off work. My sister organized like a fundraiser so we could, have someone to clean the house or pay extra if we wanted to stay in a hotel or at a hospital.

And then your mom, Judy Zohn’s, chicken soup! At that point, I had been a vegetarian for quite a while. You would bring these little tubs of chicken soup and Rick would. eat it and just be like, “Oh my God!” He’d have to call your mom and he’d be say to her, “Judy Zohn…this soup!”” So finally I was like, “all right, forget the vegetarian. I need a bowl of this soup.” And I remember, when I had my first hot bowl of chicken soup with that broth, and the carrots and the parsnips, my feet got warm.

Margie Zohn: It’s the kosher chicken, that really makes the difference, the kosher chicken.

I think you two were particularly great receivers. It was such a pleasure to give to you because I felt like you couldn’t help but express what it did for you. Then that was giving back. I think a lot of people felt that. And just like you said, that a whole lifetime of being supportive toward other people.

I recall that in some ways, Rick was amazed by that. He almost couldn’t believe how much was flowing toward him in this time. I remember him being so moved and overwhelmed by people coming from all areas, like you said, right? The donating of the sick days, just a huge difference in terms of like peace of mind and being able to focus on just healing.

Beth Tener: I remember him saying he always was a loving, caring person. Until this event happened, he didn’t quite realize how many people really cared for him. Like he was overwhelmed by how they flowed that love and care back to him. You do your best, giving out a lot of love and you never know if it really affects people.

But then like when you’re in a crisis like this…(and I know this isn’t for everybody. I think we have a lot of people in our countries and cultures that have a lot of social isolation.  I want to just name that.) …this was a real blessing to have the level of community and support that we were able to get. As fairly young people encountering cancer, I think there’s a certain way a community will rally for that.

Margie Zohn: That’s so true.

Beth Tener: One of the other things that was really sweet was how our friends created a whole support team network and you were part of it, Margie. I remember at one point Rick was in bed because he was still having a lot of pain and there were about eight or ten people all circled around our bed, almost we were like John Lennon and Yoko Ono. They’re like, how can we help? Some people are saying they can help with the driving you to appointments, others can be  the emotional support team. They self organized into these committees. It was just amazing to watch my family and friends all start working together, when they didn’t all know each other.

Margie Zohn: There were a lot of great people to be encountered in the circle. That was also a kind of an amazing connecting force. All of these new people were discovering each other all connected to you both.

Beth Tener: Yes. That is part of what I’m doing now with Kinship. I want to work at this level of how do we rebuild the web of community? What happens when we’re in such a consumer capitalist culture, we want to make everything transactional.  You hire me to do this or we hire a home health aide or we hire this or hire that.

That time was so profound for me. a) it was my time of greatest need, but b) to just see what life could be like when people saw a need and they said “I have a gift. I can show up and help you in this way.” Rick had an old friend who was living in New York City and he was like, how can I help? And Rick’s said he would love these bagels or bialys. That guy figured out a way to ship us 24 bialys, which just made Rick’s day. And then another friend, a little further away, made a musical song with his family and sent us a video of them singing it. To me, it was the heart of what community is –  I have gifts, I see a need, and, in a self organizing flow, we do what we need to do.

Margie Zohn: It reminds me of Rick’s birthday on September 19th. That was before the second surgery. Rick was absolutely. gaga for Al Forno’s. I don’t even know if it’s still there.

Beth Tener: It is. It’s an amazing restaurant in Providence, Rhode Island.

Margie Zohn: The pizza. The pizza.

Beth Tener: The grilled pizza. They figured out a way to grill pizza over a wood fire, right?

Margie Zohn: It’s pretty extraordinary. The tarts at the beginning of the meal, because it’s like, they make it Italy.The plan was to go there for dinner and they were doing Water Fire that night.

Beth Tener: You want to explain what Water Fire is? That’s another amazing thing.

Margie Zohn: It’s these bonfires on the river that runs through Providence. There’s this amazing world music that’s piped in. I don’t even know how, honestly. Then people go on boats through the river, but then a lot of people just sit on the banks and they just stare at the fire and here’s a beautiful, it’s really wonderful. Yes, that still goes on too.

So Al Forno’s and Water Fire was the plan, but he just wasn’t well enough to do it. You, Jack and I decided if we can’t go to Water Fire, we’re going to have to bring Water Fire to him. I was actually living in Providence at the time and so I picked up the food from Al Forno’s. I then created a playlist of this beautiful music.I think we had a bowl with little tea candles.

Beth Tener: We put water in a big glass bowl, tea lights, water, fire.

Margie Zohn: We just did the thing in his living room. It was just so delightful and there was a lot of creativity. That also happened in that community when you talk about people sending songs and videos, It’s not just going and buying groceries and making chicken soup. That’s all wonderful. Also just the spirit and the energy and knowing what those people particularly love and finding a creative way to give them that. It raised everyone up to be involved in that.

Beth Tener: It’s so true. I think you said that night “He’ll know he’s loved by how that went.”

So many people may relate, having gone through COVID, where you have a moment like this – we were so looking forward to going to Al Forno and having all our friends there, to have a special memory event. The disappointment was so great. And then to see how you and Jack just reinvented it and brought Water Fire to our house.

It ended up being this very intimate evening with four of us. It was one of the most beautiful nights of my life, really. That also happens in these times of crisis. Everything is so special and potent. Our creativity can get accentuated, because it matters. In times of crisis – you think of the breakdown times as being horrible – but there’s another level where they help us come alive and they open our hearts. We’re not taking anything for granted. We’re just upping our game. 

Margie Zohn: Well said.

Beth Tener: Any other thoughts you have, Margie, about how you can access or catalyze community during a journey of cancer or other illness? We talked a bit about the way the community rallied and the need for giving and receiving.

Margie Zohn: I think you both had to be somewhat vulnerable. You had to share what was going on. That is hard for a lot of people. Because, I don’t know if it’s denial or if it’s just feeling like: I should be able to do this, I don’t want to impose on people. Everyone’s busy. We’ve all got things, right? So who’s gonna take the time to do this?

That interruption, that the dedicating yourself to helping somebody who you love. To me, that’s not an interruption. That’s the whole reason that I get up in the morning. I feel like sometimes I forget that, with my To Do list and feeling I should accomplish so much.

That time had so many moments like that, which is why it was so extraordinary. Hospital time is so different from other time. I think anyone who’s ever been in the hospital or supported someone who’s in the hospital knows that it’s like a whole other universe.

At that time in particular, I found I could let go and really be present, and get down to the essential of why I’m here. That was a gift.

I’ll say one other thing too is that watching Rick, even in moments of great pain, exhaustion, and fear, watching the way he so consciously turned himself toward connection, toward, like you said, giving career counseling, watching that, I felt I was sitting at the feet of a little Buddha. I found so many times I wanted to just absorb that energy and see if I could do it in my own life. My problems were nothing compared to that, but that was such a teaching for me.

The original question you’d asked is, about community and supporting people through cancer. There’s so much magic in being willing to disrupt your productivity or your thoughts about where you should be and what you should be doing. Just stopping and seeing what is the need? What can I give in this moment? And it might be a very small thing, but I felt like to you, it was not small.

Beth Tener: Absolutely.

Margie Zohn: No gift was small and that was inspiring. I think it’s both. It’s the giving and the ability to receive and let people see the impact that the gift has on you. You two were geniuses at that.

Beth Tener: I like that. In the Love is Listening episode, we talked about this idea of delight. When you ask someone, how are you, and then you take delight in how life is flowing through them. This was a similar quality – when we received something, we’re shining a light back on the person. They feel good in the giving.

There’s one other stream I’d like to bring in, which is the reality of being the caregiver in these times and how that can be a very lonely path. When a medical issue or challenge like this upends your life, there was a lot to sort through. I was used to being on my path and I had my work and I had put work pretty central in my life. I had a lot of my identity tied in my work in the world and how I was doing.

Another friend was a core helper in that time, listened and helped me think through “when do I have to let this go and let that go?” I decided to step back from the non-profit that I had co-founded. It was like my baby, I had put so much into getting it going.

There was a lot in this situation that’s your own sorting through and discerning. There are a lot of little “letting go’s” to be able to show up as the caregiver, particularly as things got more intense with the surgeries. I knew I needed to be there for him. That was the most important thing. But there’s this other whole suite of activities and choices that have to go on the background for the caregiver to put everything on the back burner. And we didn’t have children at this point. If you have children, that’s another whole layer, right?

For the caregiver, the kinship and community support is a critical part of the journey. I know not everyone might want to be as open as Rick and I were or have their community helping like that. Some might hold it in a closer circle or not be comfortable taking in that level of community engagement in the process.

How can I, as a community member, show up for someone going through this. Do you have any thoughts on that, Margie?

Margie Zohn: I think listening and taking cues is huge, because the thing is, Being in the hospital with someone who’s in and out and up and down and it’s like sometimes just sitting there, without saying anything, but just being a presence and then they know that you’re there if they need you.

I think that as a metaphor for just letting people know I’m here and I’m ready and you don’t have to respond to this and, being willing to let your actions be guided by the people who are needing the help. It’s so important I think, yes, you both made it very clear that you were open.

I do remember at one point you felt a bit overwhelmed with organizing people. Inevitably, if people are like, wait, should we do this or should we do that? I don’t know. Just figure it out.

Beth Tener:  I need a COO here.

Margie Zohn: It can be another thing, right? And, or deputizing people who are close, who know what’s going on to be the organizers.

I think there’s a lot of letting go in all of this of how you think things should look and just being responsive in the moment.

Beth Tener: I think so. There’s one other story. Rick got a second surgery and then by December we were back in the hospital again because he was still having pain and it turned out we needed to be in the hospital over the Christmas holiday. I was brought up Christian and Rick was Jewish, not practicing Jewish at that point. I had been on like a 24-7 caregiver, helping for a long time and I was pretty worn out and exhausted.  Rick was talking to you, Margie, and he cooked up this little scheme for how he would handle being in the hospital at Christmas.

Margie Zohn: Rick was like very concerned at that time about you and about burnout. He was very empathic and really wanted you to not worry, to go and enjoy Christmas. At the time, I was partnered with somebody who was celebrating Christmas. I’m Jewish, but I needed to do some of the Christmas stuff. We talked about it and I remember saying “should we send in the Jews?”

We came up with a list of people in our community who were Jewish and who would have no problem showing up on Christmas with Chinese food. It’s really the Chinese food and a movie. My mother went and our friend Joel went. I had a schedule, and  Rick did some alone time too, so it wasn’t not 24-7, but it just felt yet another creative way to have people get what they need, right? And ease some of the anxiety at that time. I’m not sure anyone brought a menorah and lit candles and spun dreidels, but the Jews showed up.

Beth Tener: They had their day. I was able to go with my family home to the new house we had moved into and just have a few days home. To have a break like that in the middle of being in the hospital all the time and sleeping over the hospital a lot, to get to to sleep in my own bed was such a gift to me. I loved that he was thinking of that and that you helped make that happen.

I think that brings us to the end of this episode. It’s just there’s, of course, probably much more to say and many more stories of people who have walked the cancer journey and different ways that community shows up.

I feel grateful that we’ve touched on a few from this story that we both lived through. Any other thoughts in closing, Margie?

Margie Zohn: Thank you, Beth Tener, for everything you do in the world. Like thinking back to that time, your light did not dim, even though it was grueling and just so difficult.

You had a way, I think, of being able to take care of yourself through your yoga community and through your support. So you were such a light and that has continued to this day. I feel like you draw people to the light and community forms around it. I love what you’re up to.

Beth Tener: Thank you, Margie and you were certainly a very bright light in every hospital room and showing up with bags of groceries for us and always there. Anything about your work in the world, or if people wanted to find out more about your coaching, would you like to mention anything about that?

Margie Zohn: My Zohn Coaching website is a great place – it’s zohncoaching. com. I also have for the more performer side of the equation, MargieZohn.com. That talks more about my work with performers. Thanks Beth.

Beth Tener: Great. Thank you Margie for being here today.