Learning with Friends Reflections on Episodes 1-4, Season 2, with Nancy Gabriel

Learning with Friends

SPEAKERS
Beth Tener
Nancy Gabriel

Beth Tener: This episode is episode five of season two, and this one is called Learning with Friends. We have this tradition here to review the last four episodes, and Nancy and I have all listened to them.

We talk together about the themes and cross cutting insights across all the conversations.  Listening to stories, taking meaning, and discussing them is a core quality of ‘kinship’ – it’s a  practice that connects us in community and allows us to move through change and deepen our relationships.

The theme of season two is called Kinship Through Life Transitions. I’ll recap the first four episodes. The first one is called Answering the Call to Change with Katherine and Nancy. And we were looking at how do you navigate when you feel called to leave the status quo and move from one chapter of life to another.

The second part of the story was about Disrupting Patterns of Burnout with Community. And that was with Jennice and Lori. We looked at what happens when you hit that point of real exhaustion. How do you support yourself through it? And then how do you look at what’s going on around you that causes us to be in burnout?

The third episode got into Sources of Connected Strength with Greta. And we looked at how do we find strength and balance, perhaps going to healers or therapists, through meditation, the contemplative practices, and the spiritual path. And we drew on Greta’s wisdom. She’s also a singer songwriter. So we had some of her music there and the poetic. She is a sort of soul guide.

Then the fourth episode is called Love is Listening with Simon and Bruce. It’s a story of me falling in love. We had a lovely conversation about how we can find safety through connection. What are the growth promoting qualities that come out of listening and relationships?

The fourth one i pretty fresh in my head, so Nancy, I’ll just jump in there. I think you just listened to it recently. Was there a moment that you particularly liked or enjoyed?

Nancy Gabriel: I thought that was a fabulous podcast, Beth, I think one that really sticks out for me is towards the end of the podcast, Bruce is talking about listening and said that sometimes listening is saying nothing.

Then he said, “Simon, you know a lot about this. Do you have something to add?” And Simon said, “the thing about listening, Bruce, and I think, you know this, is you can know something, but you don’t always have to say it.” And then Bruce had like a big laugh. I mean, I could hear his gut laugh out of that. I just loved that moment. It was talking about and practicing in the same moment.

Beth Tener: Yeah, that part really did make me laugh. Just earlier this week, I was teaching a workshop about listening to about 20 department heads of local city government. We discussed that moment when you can respond to someone. Someone brought it up in the workshop, the you can ask: Would you like to just be heard? Would you like some help? Or would you like a hug? Heard, helped, or hugged? I loved that in terms of how we listen to each other in that presence and recognize, Ooh, this may not be the moment to just jump in with my own story or advice.

Nancy Gabriel: Right. It is such a simple thing, as Bruce said, it sounds simple, but it’s not always as simple to do that. Bruce was talking about the idea of not saying something actually can allow the person to get where they need to go on their own. In a kind of coaching that I’ve done, you’re not offering advice. You’re just holding or creating that space for the person to find their way to the knowing that they already have, because as an outsider, I don’t know.

Beth Tener: Yeah.

Nancy Gabriel: They know best.

Beth Tener: Yeah. It’s that ability to give someone space and trust the silence. I think Simon was getting at that too. Silence is so powerful. We always think we have to be talking or teaching and telling. You could just listen.

Nancy Gabriel: Right. I have a teacher who recently said to me, I don’t think of it as holding space. I think of it as creating space, which is a different orientation that I’ve been playing with. I think it’s what we mean when we say holding space, but I like this idea of creating space for the other person to express and discover whatever it is that they need in that moment.

Beth Tener: I like that idea too. As I was moving through some life transitions, I was trying to make changes within fast-paced, urgent, environments with a ton of work, a ton of responsibilities, a ton of movement and traveling and going different places where there is no space. Right?

Our lives right now may be lacking the kind of spaces we’re talking about – those spaces to pause, to reflect, to say, “how are you doing? What do you need?” You’re creating a space that doesn’t exist. I like that aspect of what you’re saying.

Nancy Gabriel:  I really like how you connected it to this fast paced thing. It’s creating space for us to be human, for us to be fully who we are. The mindset of “fast paced– move from one thing to another–be really productive”  often doesn’t create the space for that pause and discerning.

Beth Tener: I’m going to use that as a springboard to our next topic, I’m going to connect these dots about the kinship through life transitions.  In my conversation with Greta, I had come out of a fast paced job. I was trying to slow down and do non-profit sustainability work.

I kept running into exhausting my body and just doing too much. She said “you’re working on behalf of the environment and the earth. You’re not actually tending to the health and well being of your body, the earth.” That was like a, “yeah, wow, so true” moment, which alone has been such a lifetime of learning how to get that balance right.

I know I’m not the only one there. Greta said that part of the reason she senses people are moving so fast is they don’t want to feel. Because if you actually create space and slow down to feel, all of a sudden all this stuff we’re suppressing and it’s painful, the grief, the anger, what’s hard, it’s like we’re afraid to feel it because it’s too much, or we don’t have enough resource and support to feel it.

I actually believe that’s one of the reasons we get into such exhaustion and burnout is we’re not actually processing those emotions through. So this idea that we’re so busy and if no one around us is even tapping into their feelings because we got too much to do, how do we learn and discover that through relationship or connection? So I’m curious if you had that experience.

Nancy Gabriel: Yes, I was working with a woman who was a psychologist and an energy healer. And man, I didn’t know how much I didn’t know what I was feeling! Your told a similar story in your experience with Greta Bro.

In this situation, I thought I knew how I felt. I always wanted to go for walks in the woods by myself. And she said, I think the reason why you do that is because that’s like a place you can go and just be with you and maybe get more in touch with what you’re feeling instead of trying to read and pick up on what everyone around you is feeling.

Beth Tener: Yes, that people pleaser or the empathic ability where we are concerned what everyone else is feeling, then we’re not tuning into our own feelings. In the story, I talked about how Rick, my partner, would regularly ask me, “how’s your heart?” or say, “what do you need?”

At times I felt at a loss “I don’t know what I need.” I need everyone else around me to be happy, so that I don’t feel awkward. I feel guilty when they’re not happy or are disappointed in what I’m doing. He said, “that’s not what I’m asking. What do you need?”

Nancy Gabriel: What I really appreciate about that question and about the way Rick was with you. I can speak for myself, in my relationships, there’s been a lot of enmeshment. What does the other person need? What are they feeling? Trying to figure all that out, often not even on  a conscious level. We can really easily lose ourselves when we’re constantly in that people-pleasing mode.

So learning how to be in relationship where we are also ourselves is a skill that I’m learning. It’s something that you in your relationship with Rick experienced, which is, I think, somewhat unique and really beautiful.

Beth Tener: Yes, I agree. My conversation with Simon and Bruce about it helped me recognize how our relationship benefitted by Rick having been through seven years of therapy. He was a pretty emotionally mature person already. I think that’s kind of how he came into this world, but I got to benefit. I got to be on the other side of someone who’d done that much of his own work.

I got to see him model taking care of his own needs. We had a practice of saying “I need some Rick time” or “I need some Beth time.” It was completely okay to ask for that. One time, I was supposed to see him and I was all frazzled and stressed. I remember he said “just take your time, stay there tonight. I’ll see you tomorrow. I just want to be with you when we’re both ready.” I was like “Wow, you can be that way?”

I was used to someone responding critically –  “you’re late. I thought you said you’d be here. I want to see you. We made these plans.” I started to realize, oh my God, yes, there’s this way we can be tuned into what we need, but also helping the other person more fully learn and see what they need. Their needs don’t need to be seen as a threat to us or something we try to control or manipulate.

Nancy Gabriel: He didn’t take it personally.

Beth Tener: He didn’t.

Nancy Gabriel: I am coming to understand how impactful modeling is, on an interpersonal  level, but also energetically when you shift the way you respond, it shifts the people you’re responding to and everything changes. I want to validate the power of modeling.  I think in my own life, I don’t value that aspect that I bring to situations. I think it is an under highlighted and emphasized quality that, again, comes out of kinship.

Beth Tener: To me, it’s sad with the level of how individualized our lives have become and the social fragmentation. We should have young mothers in a community seeing how many of the grandmothers and the aunts and the others are treating their children and how they handle a discipline moment, right?

We’re so separate from each other. That’s one of the saddest things to me is we don’t get all that intergenerational mentoring or modeling. Kids are growing up just with the two parents rather than seeing a lot of adults handle things.

Greta mentioned a life changing moment seeing how a mother responded when her kid’s ice cream fell on her dress. The handled it with such grace and didn’t make it a big, huge issue. Greta’s said “I didn’t want to be so fussy and I saw, oh, you could be that way.”

Nancy Gabriel: I was at a presentation yesterday about reciprocity and was reminded about how story has an important role in mentoring, guiding, and sharing wisdom. That’s something that some cultures have held on to more than others, recognizing how important that is in human relationship and in kinship.

Beth Tener: I agree about the importance of the stories and coming together in places where we tell our stories and then have others reflect on them.

I was talking about receiving space, where we receive each other’s stories. Partly why I loved that Love is Listening episode with Bruce and Simon was that when I told my story Bruce reflected it back so beautifully. I felt “Oh, you heard me.”

It’s so easy to do, but we usually don’t take the time when we’re in a rush or we want to jump in and tell you our story, because we have a lot of hunger to be heard. The beauty of receiving each other’s stories is so important.

Just to recap. In the episode with Janice and Lori, we explored the kinship practices, the relational practices that can help us to sustain our balance and our vitality.

One of the ones that we talked about was peer support, like small group circles. I mentioned a Life Balance circle I started. I I invited five friends and you were one of them, Nancy, back in the day. That circle that met monthly. What was that experience like for you? How did that help you at that phase of your life?

Nancy Gabriel: Yeah, I love this. You’ve always been an early adopter or someone who sees what’s needed because this was, I think it was like the late nineties, right?

Beth Tener: We’ll date ourselves here.

Nancy Gabriel: We’ll date ourselves, but I think it’s actually important because I don’t think a lot of people were thinking in that way. But you found and kind of curated a little group. You and I really got to know each other better and as did the other people who participated. I’ve been lifelong friends with them. For me, I had a young child and I was trying to figure out how to do that balance between working in a non-profit, busy, always more work to do than could possibly be done, and also wanting to be available for my child.

That was also very much where I wanted to spend my time and have time with friends. I remember how meaningful those potlucks were and how that having a space to come together to share at that level. I don’t think I had that in other places in my life at that time.

Beth Tener: We met monthly. We each checked in on what was happening and  often you would have themes coming up that a bunch of people were dealing with or there might be one person who was really having a particularly tough time that month. We focused our group attention towards that. I loved the moments where you would be teetering or in self doubt, for example, your boss said something that really undercut your confidence.

Then you’d have like four other people go, “Oh no, no, no. Don’t take that on. That’s their stuff.” They would set you right. People had so many life experiences. Some people had been married a long time. You could see each time how different people would have gifts to bring to the conversation and to support the person.

It was a gift to watch how people changed and grew over time through it. You saw what we discussed and how they went from our little evening meeting, and then a few weeks later, you would learn what happened when they went back to work.

Nancy Gabriel: That was such an early manifestation of what you later came to call Kinship, right? Because when we have those moments at work or in our relationships, it’s our story as we start telling ourselves from our past experience and the other things that have happened and however we can spin them. I’m somebody who like takes it all on, like every challenging interaction somehow is my fault, so having a space to have other people say. “Yeah, no… you might’ve contributed to that, but that’s not all you.”

It’s just was so incredibly valuable. And as you say, it helped me and I think others in the group grow a lot when things would happen in the future, how we might respond or take something in.

Beth Tener: We heard in the episode with Greta, about how I would go in and have the sessions with her and she would react in a very empathic, kind, non judgmental way to say, “Oh dear, that’s sad. That sounds overwhelming.” And then later I could hear that voice and be like, Oh yeah, I could treat myself that way, with that kindness and that lack of judgment around what’s unfolding.

Nancy Gabriel: I too visited Greta. I think you mentioned, I might’ve pointed you in her direction and what you were just saying brought up for me a feeling of being with her. She is a love beamer. She just beams it. Talk about modeling, if you were just in her presence, you are receiving something beautiful.

I was having a conversation with a niece of mine the other day who’s in her twenties, and we were talking about an experience I had just had hiking with some people I didn’t know who were just lovely. Through Zoom, she said to me, “you’re beaming right now when you talk about that experience. That feels so good.”

There was something in what you said about Greta that helped me touch back into that. There’s something so important in that beaming, that putting out. Greta is a special human, but we can all do it.

Beth Tener: We can cultivate that.

Nancy Gabriel: Exactly.

Beth Tener: I remember at one point, the three of us actually went on vacation to Mexico together and we spent like a week in this city. beautiful little rustic, what do you call it? Palapa.

Nancy Gabriel: Yeah a palapa in Yelapa.

Beth Tener: I called the week “three introverts in rhythm.” We had time to ourselves and did writing, then we’d talk, go to the beach, and eat good food and listen to music and go dancing. Then we’d have  time to ourselves. It was just a lovely to be a nature a lot and it was so beautiful. I recall towards the end of that week, just bathing in that quality of how people can be together. We created a space that was different. At that point I was doing a lot of work in pretty intense corporate environments some of my time. It was such a contrast. At some point I was trying to articulate to you what I wanted and I said, “you know, I just want to work with people I can hug.”

Again was a while ago, but I feel like in the collective, we’re finally starting to shift to see that the level of stress and mental health and anxiety arising is showing us that we cannot have work environments be so cold, competitive and unfeeling. This reminds me of Lori’s story. She worked in a workplace with her father, who was a Greta type love beamer and Lori is a love beamer too. After working in that environment, she went into this different work environment that was more traditional cold authoritarian or hierarchical. It felt harsh. I feel like that’s the work of these times. Any one of us can show up like that in a space and we start to change it – one interaction or a group or a culture at a time.

Nancy Gabriel:  Picking up the idea about creating space, that time in Yelapa allowed you to come to that insight. You said that and it was funny and we, but we agreed – yes, but you have lived that. I’ve watched you. So those spaces are so important because those kinds of insights come through.

Beth Tener: I have evolved to that being my work, to working with people and working in those environments. And now I want to make that my work – around how do we create those environments?

So this is part of the value of having a longtime friend like you, Nancy, who can see the story and remind me of these things.

It reminds me of this quote from the poet Rilke. I have it here, he writes, “You must give birth to your images they are the future waiting to be born. Fear not the strangeness you feel. The future must enter you long before it happens.” Isn’t that a great line? So the future must enter you long before it happens.

Just wait for the birth for the hour of new clarity.

I had a little glimpse of the future of what the kind of quality of friendships and working relationships would feel like. And I waited for the new clarity, and I guess it eventually came. So those spaces – of friendship and relaxing from the busy pace with the blessing of be able to go on vacation somewhere like that with two friends – those are the spaces where that future can get seeded. I like that.

I want to recognize this theme of creating space and the spaces where we’re listening and we’re being with each other and listening with each other. We’re creating the space for what that bigger flow of love and life wants to be or become, like what we can become.

If we’re chronically busy and overstretched and never give ourselves that time. Or we’re interacting with people that don’t even receive us or see us. They’re just, you know, talking past us, which certainly I still spend the time in spaces where you don’t feel like that’s happening. Right. So, yeah.

It feels like this moment for the scale of changes we need to make. We really have to invest in creating those spaces and sustaining them.

Nancy Gabriel: I was thinking how Katherine Golub said that sometimes if you feel burnout, it’s a sign that something needs to change. It’s not a bad thing.

I think in those environments where we’re not seen and heard and that feel harsh. I think that people burn out faster in those environments. Katherine’s comment reminded me that it could be a sign that this isn’t the place for me.

Beth Tener: Yes, it’s a call to change.

To take us to a new question related to this burnout question. One of the moments I liked the second episode about Disrupting Burnout through Community was how if we’re burned out and stressed, or our health isn’t good, we take it on as a personal failing. We need more self care, right?

There are  huge industries of self care – bath bubbles and massages and all that. We can shift the question – not what’s wrong with me, but, what’s wrong with the culture and the work structures if all of us are getting to those points so regularly? It also relates to how, as a society, we think about childcare and all the labor in the home that is unpaid and all the kind of things you were sitting with as a young parent, Nancy. Did you have any thoughts as you listened to that episode about that, the way we changed the question there?

Nancy Gabriel: I mean as a systems thinker as somebody who has been involved with systems that makes so much sense to me. I can hear that in critiques about the wellness or the self care culture.

Yes, we should take care of ourselves. No question. And there’s something bigger at play here. And I am working with an organization right now where we’re seeing some of that turnover with people leaving. I think of the question it begs. Maybe some folks want to take a different career choice or they have another opportunity someplace else.

But when we see these patterns, the question is, is there something larger happening here that is not supporting people or that is leading people to seek other options? I think that’s a really hard for an organization to do, to take a step back and look at that. And it seems so important.

Actually I can say I’m working with multiple organizations right now where that’s happening. I want organizations to not feel badly about it or not be like, Oh my God, we’re failing. No, this we’re in a moment right now. I think it’s a moment of where there could really be change. To stop and look at why is this happening? The pandemic helped create the ground for this to happen, but it was needed.

Beth Tener: Agree. I’m seeing it in multiple organizations and the work that Lori Hanau is doing and Jennice Chewlin to say we need a whole new ethic in workplaces. It’s about the humanity, like focusing on our humanity before roles and titles.

How do we share leadership and share power? It is propelling us to that paradigm shift to come out of top down, competitive, resource scarce ways of designing how we work. These are human creations. We can reinvent how we structure work and flow resources and make collective decisions.

It’s all human created, and it’s inherited. This is a paradigm, one model is a survival of the fittest, the  hierarchy approach. Another model is circles and networks and collaboration. We see these models through human history. We’ve had all of them, right? There’s an insight about paradigms that I learned through another of our teachers we’ve mentioned in Donella Meadows.

She introduced me to Thomas Kuhn, who studied how paradigms shift, like in science with germ theory. When a change comes and there is a different way that now makes sense of the evidence. We resist these. You can have the evidence continually showing the current system isn’t working over and over until eventually,  people will shift.

There’s a famous quote about this from Winston Churchill about Americans. He said, “you can trust Americans to do the right thing after they have exhausted all other possibilities.” I think what is happening is with all the exhaustion and the anxiety and the level of mental health challenges. All that personal challenge and family challenge is starting to push this co-arising of psychological safety in the workplace, diversity. All these things are related – where we say – enough of these old systems that are so harmful to human flourishing and collaboration.

Nancy Gabriel: This is pretty mainstream at this point, too. In Google’s research on teams, that was like the number one finding in it – I think, psychological safety.

Beth Tener: The one thing that mattered to team performance was whether people felt safe to speak up and collaborate, or if they would be interrupted, dismissed, if it wasn’t safe to speak up. That was the thing that mattered to whether teams were good or not. No other variable had the same effect.

Nancy Gabriel: So, we’re not talking a fringe organization there. Other institutions are finding it harder to make those changes, but if you need research and science to support it, the data is out there.

Beth Tener: We have the research. Now the skill is the practices and the coaching and the mentoring of how do you go from the old to the new. That’s a lot of what we need now, because it’s not easy. As you often say, we’re trying to change the culture, but we are of the culture. The culture is in us. Is that how you say it, Nancy?

Nancy Gabriel: Yeah. I think we’re trying to live differently, but we didn’t learn how to, I often use Greg Kehete’s quote. He’s a Native American, grew up in the Pueblos and I think New Mexico. He says, when you’re born in the Pueblo, from the minute you’re born, you’re taught how to live in community.

I was not taught that from day one. So those skills that we’ve been talking about: listening, creating space for people, they’re not capacities that many of us have developed over time. We don’t learn how to do them in school yet. There’s such a key aspect to what makes us successful and what makes teams and organizations successful. I think you’re right. It’s now we have to unlearn a lot of what we have done things in the past and learn new ways.

Beth Tener: One of the people I’ve learned a lot from in this area is Carol Sanford who has a book Regenerative Business. She comes from that philosophy. In that book, she spells out how to set up work structures in ways that lead to human creativity and thriving, with autonomy. Her approaches allow you to make good decisions that connect what you need with what the whole team or system needs and what the clients needs. She has some really brilliant ways to map it out.

She has a chapter called 30 Toxic Business Practices. It’s so helpful because she maps out from the mindset of hierarchy, these practices make sense, or behaviorism is another one, carrots and sticks. Those approaches can actually undermine what you’re trying to do. But they are so ingrained, like the idea of “measure for performance” or give stars and bonuses if you make it and punish if you don’t.

If you’re really trying to do something in a different way, you have to clear out all that old stuff that is counterproductive. She quotes a woman who said “the way we usually go about change in  organizations is like a New England farmhouse where you just kind of keep adding on and adding on. It’s like you nail some new program on, hammer it in, and then paint it to match.”

You don’t realize that the old performance management program that’s completely punishing people, has everyone walking around in a certain level of fear and anxiety to say what’s true or to fail. So you can’t do both. That’s where I think coaches and mentors and the kinship in the transition is so important  You can’t always even see it if it’s what you’re used to living within.

Okay, so one final topic to me is the heart of kinship and transition is back to listening.  I loved the part of the fourth episode where we’re talking about Rick and how he would really delve and want to learn what you were into. He was not only a good listener as Bruce saw, Bruce said it really well, Rick did things that were growth promoting. He would call it forth, asking “what are you into?” And keep asking you questions so that you started believing in what you were doing and your visions even more.

Bruce was talking about what are the differences of how we can be in interactions or group spaces that, what are the differences that most make a difference? I think that quality of delighting in someone and Simon mentioned too, like I’m, I’m not only listening, but I’m actually delighting in what you’re sharing with me. I’m delighting in your presence and in how life is coming through you. So I wondered if you want to say something about that, Nancy.

Nancy Gabriel: Oh, I just love the word delight and like what that evokes in me – even as you were saying that I was smiling and thinking how much I delight in these conversations with you and how meaningful that is.

Simon also talked about these moments of delight with someone on the bus, who maybe you don’t even have an interaction with.  I was touched by that and was thinking of a recent interaction I had. I was going to pick up my vegetables at my Community Supported Agriculture farm. There’s a pick your own flowers. They had these beautiful dahlias. I was going over to pick some some and a young man came over to me. He showed me this one he had picked and he said, “Oh my God, isn’t this beautiful?”

We both like had this moment of awe and delight over this. So we’re delighting over the dahlia flower and then we’re delighting over the fact that we both are in such delight over the dahlia. It was one of those moments that just really touched me. Then he went to his car and I went off to pick some more flowers around the barn. I came back around the corner and he was walking towards me and he handed me the dahlia.

I want you to have this. And he said, I took some pictures of it. This is for you. And I was so touched by that. I think it really was that moment of delighting in the delight. And then from that, doing something really generous and kind.

Beth Tener: What an impulse, right?

Nancy Gabriel: What an impulse. Yes. I loved that part of what Simon was pointing to.

Beth Tener: That’s what can happen as we really learn to be present and see each other. As we learn that quality of listening, some of the qualities Bruce was mentioning, not just the basics of not interrupting or not being dismissive, but the feeling with, but then the delight part of appreciating you’re an exquisite person.

I think that’s one of those examples of a virtuous cycle. We know that cycles can spiral the other way when things are unsafe and then no one wants to share – we can talk about the spirals that go towards more negative outcomes. This is one that goes towards a lot more positive.

I’m sure you both walked away and like were nicer to the next person you met, right?

Nancy Gabriel: Actually, I found that to be such a generous act that something came up in the following week where someone I hadn’t seen for probably 20 years was traveling in the Northeast and needed a place to stay. I wasn’t going to be around and I messaged her through Facebook and said, stay at my house.

I feel like that flower interaction was really and truly part of the impetus to do that. She was shocked. We haven’t talked in a long, long time. That felt really good. So I’m really grateful for the flower interaction if it helps lead me to my own act of generosity.

Beth Tener: That’s beautiful.

As a way to wrap up our time, here’s a question: how do we create more spaces where we can be genuine and real together, like the Life Balance Group, or like my podcast conversation spaces are like that. Even if we’re working in hard environments or big parts of our life don’t feel like this, we can figure out one friend we can do it with, or invite a small group you can start with. How do we invest time in finding those spaces where we can cultivate this way of being with each other? It really can be starting small. You can cultivate a space with someone else by handing them a flower that they like.

Beth Tener: And you can do it on zoom. You heard my friendship with Bruce and Simon. I met Simon on a training course online during COVID. I knew he knew Bruce and we started a weekly call. He lives in Australia and I have never met him, but I feel so close to him. We’ve gone through a lot of ups and downs together.

We heard about my falling in love with Rick on a phone call. We can really connect deeply – it doesn’t have to be in person if you have the quality of connection and presence together.

Well, thank you very much, Nancy. That’s a wrap for Learning with Friends. In the second half of Season 2, we’ll have four more episodes and then another Learning with Friends to finish out the season.
So I look forward to having you back.

Nancy Gabriel: I look forward to being here.